The president of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a United States Congress-affiliated foundation, Carl Gershman, recommended in March, when President Kim Dae Jung visited Washington, that the issue of human rights in North Korea be raised in line with South Korean government's 'Sunshine Policy'. The improvement of human rights in the North has been a major concern of the NED, that has advocated democratization in a number of countries since 1983. The NED financially sponsored two Seoul international conferences on the North's human rights in 1999 and 2000. A reporter from the Chosun Ilbo met with president Gershman on June 29, who is visiting Seoul to attend a "Forum on Democracy," sponsored by NED. Excerpts of the interview follow.

Question: In a speech opening the 1st International Conference on Human Rights in North Korea held in Seoul in 1999, you lamented the international community's reticence on human rights in the North. Do you think some change has taken place in the international community on the issue since then?

Answer: Though not necessarily because of the international conferences, the international community has evidently begun to turn its eyes to the issue of North Korean human rights, and the trend is expected to be strengthened in the future. But this doesn't mean that the human rights have improved in North Korea.

Q: As far as the North Korean human rights issue is concerned, Europe appears to be taking the lead. What's the position of the United States.?

A: The United States too is greatly concerned about the human rights of the North Koreans. But I think there's a difference between the role of Europe and that of the United States, as America has to deal with the disarmaments issue including the missile program. It may be said that they are engaged in a game of "good cop bad cop". Whether Pyongyang wants to open itself or not will be the test case of the European efforts. Accordingly, Europe will have to reinforce the monitoring of its humanitarian aid activities in the North and heighten its voice to the North Korean and Chinese governments on behalf of human rights on the part of North Korean escapees.

Q: What you do think about the increasing international interest on North Korean escapees?

A: I think we should start from security issues involving nuclear weapons and missiles rather than from human rights. Increased interest in human rights alone can hardly be regarded as a good sign. Above anything else, the North's prolonged totalitarianism has completely retrogressed its history. Take the example of Poland whose democratization movement we supported in the 1980s. Poland was not so ruined and isolated as North Korea was. In addition it was not as repressive as North Korea has been and had strong church and underground movement. Poland had as many as 800 illicit publications. It could be described as a member of the European society. The situation in North Korea is entirely different. And the path looks too far off. The international community's emerging interest and concern about human rights in North Korea, I think, are just in the incipient stage.

Q" Do you think it possible for the South Korean government's sunshine policy to realize the values of human rights and democratization in North Korea as well?

A: In March I made a recommendation on this matter to President Kim Dae Jung. He told me that there are more urgent tasks like the reunion of separated families. When the United States government attempted to reconcile with the Soviet Union and China, voices about freedom and democracy were conveyed continuously. A nongovernment organization should be able to fulfil such a task. The NED is a sort of quasi-government agency. Though financially supported by Congress, its ideologies and activities can be said to be completely independent. If the government finds it difficult to do something for diplomatic reasons, such an agency as the NED should be able to play a certain role.

Q: The democracy pursued by the NED may be criticized as American-oriented?

A: That may be what authoritarians claim. The importance of democracy is not confined to the United States. Men have inalienable dignity and rights. It's very important to acknowledge this.

Q: What is your personal view about the process of democratization in North Korea?

A: I think it is a long and painful path. Though we have to help the improvement of society and institutions in the North, which is extremely difficult. it's necessary for us to prepare for the process.

(Kim Mi Young,miyoung@chosun.com )